DG (Operations): new posts

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News is that Operating dep't has obtained approval to create 4 posts of DG Operations, for controlling train operations in a 'streamlined' manner, with direct line of command to COMs. There is news that there are differences in the Board on this issue. FROA has also expressed its reservations on this new development.

Interesting times indeed!

Rajeev.

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THis planning started lsat year when 4 reginal time table were printed namely northern,western ,southern & eastern region rather than usual zonal time table .THis Move went unnoticed & heavy traffic in railways further encouraged them for such action

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I think now enough justification exist to have DG( Construction) region wise to coordinate construction activities in region . CAO(C) can report to him

If sound appealing,item can be discussed in next IPWE seminar in Jaipur

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I hear that there is a growing demand to let the CAO posts become a general cadre post, to be filled from any service just as in case of ADRM/DRM/AGM/GM posts. The logic is that GM(Constt) NFR has already been released and further that construction projects are lagging for want of better coordination with different departments.

regards,

Rajeev.

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such thing will happen if engineers do not insist on their rights & surrender .some time back same demand was for posts of CRS as engineers were not opting for it .Fortunately people came forward & all CRS are at present Engineers

Attack is best way of defence .we should make claim for at least one post of DG (OPERATION) ie 25%quota along with other tech deptt as is in GM post to maintain enough pressuret.If non technical person can coordinate operations,tech people can certaily do better

unfortunately we are not asking & insisting even corridor time of 4 hr for maintenance of our assets & then get blame that we are not able to maintain it .our machine remains under utilised

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Main concern in todays scenerio is to run more & more train with higher speed even on the routes which required large inputs. The say of Engineer in these things are not considered much. Rightly says that even corridors block are not given & even urgent blocks are not given as DRM in divisions doesn"t concern much about engineering things. They are much concern about punctuality & increasing earning. Even we engineers are a fragmented lot in divisions & its high time that Sr DEN/Cord. post should be made SAG at least to start with in some big division. Its high time that DG/Con should be constructed.

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Punctuality can not be maintained if assets are not maintained & are not in good shape .Due to pressure from DRM,PCE & All possible corners ,engineers do not put severe speed restriction even if no maintenace & renewal block are permitted (Although such restrictions are imposed if renewals are not sanctioned).

As a result it does not pinch to others. Finally one day asset collapse & accident takes place .On that day day all instructions ,mannuals are seen .

I know one such circular issued jointly by ME & MT(sri Agnihotri & Sri Shantinarayan) in 1996 after Champa accidents of Bilaspur divn( a pwi was changing fracture rail with out block ,train came & fallen in river resulting casuality of about 250 persons)in old SER where DRM & GM were advised to grant engg block for renewals & machine wkg & send the summary of blocks NOT GRANTED & their reason every month to Board

Was it not our intrest to insist upon implimentation of this Board circular?

Is it really very difficult to convince others that asset will deteriorate if not maintained & a train at full speed can not be taken at deteorated track?

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This is classic case of first create a problem and then find solutions. Creation of new zones/division has created additional artificial hinderances called interchange points. Creation of post of DG operations (traffic) to coordinate between different zones in a region is typical example of expanding the bureaucratic set up by traffic department.

Shared Documents Joined: Nov 08, 2006 No. of Replies: 68

This is a classic case of proving the proverb " Today's problems are Yesterday's solution".

So, first create more zones for efficient / decentralised working and then create addiional posts for co-ordination between more number of zones!!

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Looks like we can lend a lot of expertise to operations FOC.

Coordination is a major issue in day to day operations. If putting 4 more posts can help solve it who are we to cry foul? I fail to understand in what way this is going to affect us in negative. Better coordination will definitely result in faster clearance of traffic on a corridor which in turn will result in more time available to either run more trains or give more line blocks. we should be happy with this.

Similarly I also fail to understand the rampant criticism of increase in zones. Look at it other way round, two decades back with 300 MT traffic we had 9 zones now we run 600+ MT traffic and we see poor justification of 6 new zones. If 9 GM's are justified for 600 MT traffic then definitely there was poor justification for having 9 zones two decades back.

When it comes to us, at the drop of a hat we start beating our chest that how overloaded we are with works and how difficult it is to get leaves and personal time to spend with families and all(which unfortunately is true). When it comes to others we start crying foul.

If you see it rationally the root cause of our problem is lack of attention on details on every aspect of our business. Which boils down to having adequate number of supervisors and managers to plan & supervise our activities. Even though overall we are overstaffed, we are understaffed & ill equipped at supervisory and managerial levels.

There is no point being defensive or in attacking mode over this issue. No body is attacking us by creating 4 new posts and there is nothing to defend!

I have my own reasons to believe that the posts of CRS's and CAO's if made excadre will benefit the organisation as a whole. Same goes for GM's of production units. Any takers?

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Co-ordination between whom? The DG of one region will co-ordinate between the zones in that region, then who will co-ordinate between the 4 regions? Will it not be at Board's level or will it require another Super DG? When Railway Board can do co-ordination between four regions, can it not do between 16 zones? These are the questions we have go give a hard look at. Nobody is against judicious creation of posts, what is being discussed about is injudicious creation of posts.

As far as creation of zones is concerned, I do not think it was justified at any point of time by the GMT carried. If the number of zones is decided by the GMT carried then we will be entering a very dangerous territory, as we may not be sure as to how many zones we will have in coming years and some of the zones may have to do as only  or part zone as they do not carry traffic at par with other zones. If the posts are created based on any scientific analysis, nobody will dislike it; but unfortunately it is never done like this. Otherwise what is the justification for having so many work charges posts of DENs / SrDENs in divisions, who for decades together are doing normal maintenance work, but still their posts are work charged posts.

Our problem is not because of inadequate number of officers or supervisors. It is because of working system. Even if we increase number of posts, will the burden lessen, DEFINITELY NO. In our system there is lot of duplicacy of work at various levels and there are more persons to supervise / co-ordinate then do the work at cutting edge. Our problem is more number of posts for supervision then actually doing the work. This can be verified from any of the efficiently working Railway system in the world. Just to give an example, take example of a railway called BHP Billiton in Australia. Incidentally this Railway holds the Guiness Book of World record for running longest train (In Year 2001, they ran 7.75 km long train with 622 wagons, at 75 kmph, using 8 locos and carrying 99.732 T Trailing Load). This railway system is about 734 kms long, including all spurs etc. Their traffic carried was about 120 GMT in FY05 . They earned profit of US$ 11 Billion in FY05. And to top it all their staff strength was mere 339 in FY05 (yes it is true). In many of other Railway systems also the figures are not much different. So we should try to cut down in the so called supervision and make people do more of original work then just supervise or co-ordinate.

As far as CRS post is concerned there is nothing wrong if all other departments are given this post (as has already been done for CSOs). In any case, Railway has agreed to do so but it was not agreed by Ministry of Civil Aviation who own the post. As far as CAO is concerned, it has to be with Engg. Deptt. only as the major component of the work is Civil Engg. work and it requires lot of technical inputs also in addition to managerial input.

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"Even though overall we are overstaffed, we are understaffed & ill equipped at supervisory and managerial levels."

OTOH I believe that we are decidedly overstaffed esp. at managerial level.

Let us not forget that having too many managers creates a dilution of managerial authority and jurisdiction and lowers their morale. There is a sobering effect of responsibility which gets frittered away if we over-staff at managerial level.

Compare today's IRSE cadre with say 40 years back when hardly 10-15 officers were recruited. An IRSE had a distinct image in the organization. Non-IRSE engineering officers and subordinate staff looked up to them as examples. An IRSE did not have to get involved in office politics to get opportunities for personal growth. It was assured. Today, are we any better with five times bigger cadre?

All we have achieved with more managers is an erosion in the morale of officers and apprehensions about their future prospects. Today, a solution is suggested in terms of SA grade post of Sr DEN(HQ). Tomorrow, we may have to upgrade AEN in SA grade. How will it affect the morale of the service?

I doubt if having more managers is a way to achieve higher standards of professionalism.

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Shekhawat sir, Don't go on just data of BHP. 339 is the number of people in the payroll of primary organisation. You know very well how these people work in these countries. They just outsource the jobs to various firms. I am quite sure that even the number of cleaners and grass cutters in BHP is more than 339, you must see the total number of people involved in that business in upstream and downstream organisations. For that matter in my project worth Rs 3600 cr only 125 persons were working on main contractor's payroll. But you know overall supervisor and managers will be more than 500, because the functions are outsourced.

I give you a simple example, Our schedule says ADEN should have 100% check on rebars and then only concreting should proceed. And concreting should be done in presence of IOW. Do we have adequate staff to comply with this provision? Less than 50% of concreting is witnessed by competent supervisor (my personal experience).

I am not sure what type of technical competence is required from a CAO which other people do not have. But the same other people do have competence to become a GM of an operational Railway and GM/CON or RE. This is departmentalism at the extreme!

40 years back IRSE.........! we are in a good viewing position to review that, we know what wonders were done in last 40 years in railways. We are struggling with maintenance with hand tools of neanderthal era. Track machines are deco pieces since the complementary system is not in place to achieve productivity itself. Precast & RMC concrete is a standard all over the world we are still using the coffee pot mixers which is now finding place in construction museums. PSC sleepers are handled by crowbars. All this while IRSE's have been there. We are worse today but not because the cadre is 5 times bigger. The railway is 10 times bigger than what it was 40 years back. Cadre has only grown 5 times. We are worse because we have refused to change over a period of time.

SAG post solution is actually an indicator of need for more powers at that level. Since people can only think of more power in terms of higher grade of posts they come up with such suggestions, nothing wrong in it. Objectively the suggestions indicate that more delegation is required at that level. Now its up to you to either upgrade the post or enhance the powers. Don't go by the words, look into the meaning.

I am still unable to appretiate such emotional outpours over creation of 4 posts and am unable to connect it anyway with prosperity or else of other cadres including mine. Cadres may come and go with time. Have we not discontinued carpenter cadre with PWI's? Don't we need a fabricator cadre to deal with steel channel sleepers now(if we still want to do it depatmentally).

The moment we talk about managers we think of DRM, Chief Engineer only. We forget that an IOW, a PWI, an AEN, a DEN is also a manager. They are in fact real managers. Above them are policy and decision makers. When I say managers I mean field managers. I hav'nt worked at policymakers level and hence would honestly keep my view within my horizon of experience and wisdom.

I appreciate Mr Shekhawat's and Mr. Garg's view but do beg to differ!

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After so much discussion,I will like to know whether any railway has submitted proposals to create permanant rev post of DEN/SRDEN for maintenance in divisions which are presently manned by work charged people

If no ,what are the problems in doing it ?

As for as I understand there are no problems except following up the proposal in right earnest .Decision makers at top have short tennure & as a result defers such decisions

As for as supervisors are concern ,western railways has create last year 22 pwi post & 4 IOW perm revenue post against existing assets but increased work load

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That is a small proof of my point of view. We do have excess staff but OTOH we have severe shortfall in critical areas. Generic comment that Railways has excess manpower is good for RM committee, but we are aware of ground realities and should appreciate them.

Counting heads and beating chest is a big myth. Today if I reduce my gang from say 15 for each beat to 2 and start maintaining track with machines the net outgo from pocket may be same or slightly less. I'll need road cranes, backhoes, KGTV's, hand held tampers, mobile gangs with tools, communication equipments etc. Yes efficiency will be better output will be better. So reduce the manual work and increase mechanisation, jobs will shift to other upstream/downstream organisations like equipment manufacturers, Maintenance and spares firms, fuel etc. But cost wise there won't be much difference. Nothing wrong in that but don't generalise the issue to give an impression that we have people on roll sitting idle or doing duplication. In my small carrier in railways I have never worked on a post where I felt that the post itself was redundant, or there were redundant posts around me.

Height of this myth happened in my section in 2003 when I was required to commission a dozen LC mannings. Personnel wanted me/my dept. to make a matching surrender to create the posts of gatemen. I do not know who proposed for manning on those majority of godforsaken locations and how on earth was I supposed to give a matching surrender. Which of my work became redundant due to manning? Although the issue was resolved with utilisation from surrender bank pool, but I got 30 odd posts created with no intake before commissioining, and finally ended up manning them with my gangmen transferred to gatemen. Nett staff under me remained same for atleast a year after manning because the indents never moved forward due to questions raised at every level on the justification of these posts, due to this myth of overstaffing.

IRSE is again a myth and an ego. At every level of entry in railways there is stiff competition, right from UPSC to RRB exam (even for gangmen now). Imagine 200,000 candidates for 100 station master posts, thats 1 in 2000. IRSE is roughly 25 in 10,000 which works out to 1 in 400. which is tough to clear(statistically)? How on earth IRSE after entry become examples to emulate and others become duffers. Organisational culture is at fault in not nurturing the talent, for which policymakers are to blame which points fingers to XXXX.

How come such a bright organisation has 400,000 gangmen working every day on track with bare feet. Does their occupation does not justify a safety shoe? OTOH what does a driver do to earn a free shoe from railways. Ironic? no? Actually we don't care beyond our own welfare, that's what I feel.

We feel we are very competent in Railway construction, but look around which Railway makes a formation in bank by dumping soil from adjoining borrow pit irrespective of the bearing capacity of soil. We don't feel anything when poor formation is blamed for poor upkeep of track geometry. Who is to blame?

On what grounds we have accepted lower medical categories for IOW's cadre. And to add to that same organisation uses a revolutionary preventive maintenance system for its track works and OTOH continues to carry on with user complaint based repair system for works. Since roads and drains have no single user they are left on its own to be cared for once in a while for a VIP's visit. Go to a way side station and see the ladies bringing bucketfull of water from the lone handpump to their homes. What standards we are following? Is there a limit on distance of handpump from the farthest house? Why a person should'nt use all his might to shift to a big city if he gets tap water in the house only in the cities. What stops us from providing a running water system(pumped or handpump) in each house? POLICY, which is made at levels where only XXXX's reach.

Look at ONGC they don't make houses in Bombay High they do 12H/14D on-off work cycle, from Chief Engineer to Peon, with return fare and TA for journeys to and from home(rail/air). Visit their staff colonies, you will see the difference. They don'nt draw their civil engineers from UPSC, still they are managing well. We insist on persons to stay in midst of a jungle in a house without water and power so that we can run our trains hauled by Electric traction. Is it not ironic? Compare this to BHP they have to pay twice the industry average pay due to hard working conditions, and no body stays in such conditions. The myth of excess staff makes us do things which belittle the staff on roll. In our zeal we have made our mind that every one other than ourself is excess!

Our neo feudalistic attitude does'nt even recognise these as issues of any worth. But this is going on since before I was born. They have been here for over a century looking after their own welfare and propagation, doing only enough to meet the ends for organisation. Only our ego's see reduction in zone sizes as dilution of jurisdiction & authority. We feel happy in administering a large mess instead of feeling fulfillment in making improvement in a smaller area by attention to details. That's the culture we have inherited. Who is to blame? We need to set right our own house first.

PS: I am aware that zones are not based on traffic handled by them. I am also aware of the social-regional-political-economic and whatever else reasons for new zones. Traffic is just an analogy.